Curse

Mekkakat · Apr 28, 2007, 05:35 AM // 05:35

i've had 3 dervs.

the first i beat NF with day two of it being out. he had all black ancient, and he was.. meh in pve. i thought maybe i was using bad skills. apparently i was using a darn good build, because its really popular to this day. he was practically dwarfed by all my other characters. i deleted him after realizing i just wouldnt play him at all. i made 2 more since then, one for the 130 build, which couldnt touch my warrior when it came to farming, and the 3rd cause i was bored... all deleted. maybe its not my playing style or something, but this is the major turn off.. enchantments..

can anyone say paladin??

or worse yet.. healing hands wammo??

i remember when nooby dudes playing warrior would have both riposte and healing hands/mending, and people would mock them, but melee really couldnt kill them. now trust me, i know how lame they are, im not defending them, but any good caster can kill a derv, and most good warriors, or a sin that has his upper hand, wins on a derv.

to make a long story short..

i was in ra.. i saw at least 50 dervs there. every team i had had one or two in them, and worse than that, they couldnt deal damage, and healed NON stop. all that is to me is a HHs wannabe paladin wammo. total garbage for the team.

so i wrote the first part of each dervs name down, to keep track of how many i saw/died..

43 dervs died, 39 of which had monks.. pretty good monks. 10 of which had monks/healers that werent so good...

i only played 50 matches..

what does that say for the class?? or at least the community of players? now i know warriors have some nooby dudes playing them, but they've been around since the dawn of gws.. so they kinda have an excuse.

im not bashing dervs.. just wondering how they can get away with nothing but healing, pathetic spiking, moderate pressure that any class could apply, and the occasional luck kill, and not be called a bad class??

this was the breaker for me..

today i was in ra.. two dervs were left, i had died because we had no healer (i was thumping), and our derv and theirs went toe to toe. i thought, "oh cool, maybe i'll get to see some sweet damage, or maybe a spike!"... no..

just the worst, lamest healfight EVER. it went on for about 10 minutes until one of them said.... i still cant get over this... "dervishes are so invincible, we cant even kill each other!!".. WHAT!?!?! and then everyone else agreed minus their monk! so finally, the opposing teams monk says.. "i only stayed to see how pathetic this fight could get. dervishes are garbage." and left.

im sorry dervs. please post some help/tips or SOMETHING as to what makes you a viable class to this community. the builds out right now are too .. well.. they suck. warriors outclass you, antimelee/spells/daze/and enchant removal own you.. where do you shine??? avatars?? rangers/mesmers disrupt them.. then what? im at a loss of words for a class that just isnt as good as all the others imo.

please post your ideas on what maybe i'm seeing, or if you better dervishes know of some secret GOOD dervish only location lol. like i said... i made a very statistical poll.. and they failed bad.. im not trying to be biased either. i did spend my hard earned cash on PvE dervs, and i DO know how to use them, and all the popular builds. im not saying im the best, but i'd love to be convinced that this was just bad fate/luck and maybe im wrong, please help gws community!

Anarion Silverhand · Apr 28, 2007, 08:32 AM // 08:32

Personally, I play the dervish class because it's different from the other front-line classes.

First we have the ability to hit 3 foes at the same time. To me, little axe hits on 1 foe at a time is never going to match the size of that.

Then we have the moderate tanking ability and the ability to throw out some AoE conditions.

I like the dervish because of its versatility, when I'm tired of running a damage build using attack skills, I can always go mystic sandstorm and party support for some nice AoE damage, along with some decent heals.

Shuuda · Apr 28, 2007, 10:05 AM // 10:05

I do like Dervishs and wouldn't delete mine. Even without an IAS my Dervish has always been able to pack a high damage punch. But I'm not a fan of all them Earth healing enchantments (Mys regen etc) Natural Healing normally does the job when I wanna go Scythe spike. I'm also interested in the other things they can do, like Sandstorm spike, and healing support.

LightningHell · Apr 28, 2007, 10:42 AM // 10:42

Dervishes are very good damage characters (and can tank if necessary, as well). Mystic Regeneration is omg hax in PvE, and you'd be stupid to think a Dervish isn't useful in PvP.

Shuuda · Apr 28, 2007, 11:33 AM // 11:33

And lets not forget the Avatars which all provide useful in both offence and defence. Melandru and Grenth are know to be useful.

Perfected Shadow · Apr 28, 2007, 01:25 PM // 13:25

In PVE which is what the campfire is for, Dervishes can be good damage dealers and/or tanks. Not too sure about PVP but you shouldn't generalize and say the class is crap just because Dervishes caused you some headache in RA.

Str0b0 · Apr 28, 2007, 02:07 PM // 14:07

On the rare occasions I RA with my Dervish I never have a problem dominating. Then again my preferred build is basically a blindbot on steroids. Strictly speaking in PvE dervishes take more monitoring and active managment to play than other melee classes and a lot of people find this to be tedious. I personally enjoy juggling my enchantments around and as for a competent caster...Well I can put my enchants back on faster than a caster can strip them. I've run mesmers and necros slap out of energy in RA before while they futilely tried to strip off my enchants. Between the monk desperately trying to keep blind off the warriors and the necro and mesmer trying to keep my enchants off me I had all but the ele shut down through pressure and conditions. Granted this was RA and not the most organized PvP out there but still your experience was in RA so I thought I'd share mine. So if that's useless then there must be some super effective build out there I have yet to see.

nidus · Apr 28, 2007, 02:43 PM // 14:43

the power/crapness of dervs depends on the person playing them really.

i have a derv, but i dont heal all the time. Obviously i have a few enchants, but 2 of them are healing enchants, the others a energy management. and the rest of my skills a attack skills and a res. damage IMO is quite good.

i agree that a lot of people that play dervs simply take a load of enchants so that that can stay alive but cant do anything else, but on the other hand there are a lot of people who play dervs that know how to use the class properly and can make a significant difference to the outcome of the battle.

Theres my two cents....

Mickey · Apr 28, 2007, 02:56 PM // 14:56

A dervish is just like a sin in how people play them. If you play them correctly, they can be unbelievable, if you don't, then they won't.

Crazyvietguy · Apr 28, 2007, 03:33 PM // 15:33

I have a dervish and I love it. To me Dervishes seem more effective over longer periods of time.

Dervishes can last in a battle much longer than a Warrior can, if set up correctly. They have (basically) constant regen. They are also the ONLY melee class that can heal effectively and still provide good damage output.

Plus.. Mysticism is one of the better primaries in the game.

Mekkakat · Apr 28, 2007, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perfected Shadow

In PVE which is what the campfire is for, Dervishes can be good damage dealers and/or tanks. Not too sure about PVP but you shouldn't generalize and say the class is crap just because Dervishes caused you some headache in RA.

..i didnt generalize. i told you all i have had 3 pve dervs. i also used to run Grenth in GvG before the nerf. i play this game to learn, be fair, teach, and have fun, i'm sorry if it seems like im trying to bash the class, but i swear im not.

dervishes DO have a MUCH higher survival rate than the other melee class... but so far, they cant survive a team as well as say a warrior. usually when i play warrior in ra/ta/gvg, and have to go toe to toe with a derv, even with his healing, the monks healing him, and his team trying to hurt me, is a really one sided fight, and ends quickly in my favor. maybe they cant handle spikes that well.. any comments on that? are the enchants good, but not great against spikes or something? the heal to damage ratio seems to sluggish, and then to try to attack.. well.. you can see how its looking downhill..

AoE effects with enchants are cool, and sandstorm is too, although i've never liked any of those builds due to the conditional uses of them. the spike seemed nothing more than a slower starburst build, with less consistent damage. one thing i REALLY dont like is the avatars.. nice and all.. but the down time, and general.. meh about them.. for instance.. i play a lot of ranger/mesmer. .. i just interrupt them lol. maybe thats luck, or maybe they just werent expecting it and got too close to activate it in gvg idk.

i do love things like Reapers Sweep, and the more damage based side, paired with the powerful wind prayers, to limit the enchantments to maybe 2-3, and focus on putting the damage on the line.

OH! and i like imbue health healing. this was the only time i had ever used avatars and liked them. Melandru+imbue+dwanyas touch, and general support heals... good freaking heals.. then they nerfed melan. im sure it still works, but i rather play a melee class for some sort of damage :P

please keep explaining more on your damage output and general usage of your dervishes. i might not ever play one in pve, but at least i wont be in an uproar when my guild wants me to play one for gvg/ta/ha

Str0b0 · Apr 28, 2007, 05:02 PM // 17:02

Well my particular build, which I use for PvP and PvE because it just works well,utilizes EDA and an ebon scythe. Generally I only use two attack skills, Victorious Sweep and Wild Blow. I always carry wildblow because it's a guranteed critical hit. Sometimes for PvP I'll swap out for Rending Sweep instead of victorious but I always keep wild blow because it's spammable and ends stances in addition to the critical. For spike protection I use watchful intervention in PvP and Faithful in PvE. Watchful in PvP because it's a quicker recast. Basically when I PvP I don't function as a prime damage dealer but I make sure to keep as many melee opponents blind for as long as possible and it keeps the monks busy removing my condition that I applied. With a spammable attack I can reapply blind as fast as Wildblow recharges. I'll use HoF for an IAS and a cover so if it get's stripped anyone near me will regret it when they burn. I also tend to use Aura of Thorns for it's AoE cripple and Bleed. Instead of Mystic Regen I tend to use Vital boon and Either conviction or Signet of pious light in PvP. In PvE it's Mystic Regen all the way. I suppose though my playstyle isn't necessarily the same as yours. Rather than going for huge damage output, I usually hit for about 120-130 on my wildblows in PvP, I prefer to break the opponent and then destroy them. In RA, which I admit is not organized or high end PvP, I can literally shut down the monk, the mesmer and/or necro and the Warrior all by myself. That's potent in and of itself right there. Sure I'm not killing people in two hits, but the conditions and pressure damage and the tendency to make mesmers and necros over extend their energy trying to strip me is just as valuable as straight damage.

~ Dan ~ · Apr 29, 2007, 09:03 PM // 21:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mekkakat

usually when i play warrior in ra/ta/gvg, and have to go toe to toe with a derv, even with his healing, the monks healing him, and his team trying to hurt me, is a really one sided fight, and ends quickly in my favor.

are u serious? honestly, i scrimmaged 3 warriors, 1v1 ofc. now they didn't exactly do much wrong, they all had the same thing in common. riposte (lol). each game went on for around 10-15mins of continuous fighting. and you say that we can't handle the spike dmg? (if you mean that came from your war) i beat all 3 of them hands down, never dropped below 50%... EDA ftw.

Mekkakat · Apr 30, 2007, 12:55 AM // 00:55

um.. obviously the warriors werent "spiking" very well using a riposte build bro..

first meet a -good- warrior, then we can talk. not riposting. and a 1v1 match isnt really going to "prove" anything. its a team game, and i dont feel like 1v1 matches will ever show what makes what "good". : / sorry.

MBP · Apr 30, 2007, 04:37 AM // 04:37

Mekkakat - every class has strengths and weaknesses, some more weaknesses than strengths...the Derv is one of those.

in 1v1 DvsW the Dervish will be the underdog mainly because of his armor

I would say the Derv is better at PvE than PvP and is more of a challenge to play.

It's not like you're being forced to play Dervish either...if you don't like that profession then don't play it. Talking about how much dervs stink compared to warriors and giving several reasons why you'll never use one again is kind of insulting to players that like them. The campfire sections are for helping other players use specific professions better and to encourage their usage;not to tell everyone how inferior one class is to another and discourage their use.

That's my two cents and I apologize if I made you upset.

Anarion Silverhand · Apr 30, 2007, 05:48 AM // 05:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mekkakat

i was in ra.. i saw at least 50 dervs there. every team i had had one or two in them, and worse than that, they couldnt deal damage, and healed NON stop. all that is to me is a HHs wannabe paladin wammo. total garbage for the team.

You can't really judge a class by looking at the RA builds used. The majority of the builds used in RA will always be non-optimal and won't be very good.

~ Dan ~ · Apr 30, 2007, 08:39 AM // 08:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mekkakat

its a team game

yet in your "toe-to-toe" you seem to think the dervish can't handle spike dmg? tbh i would think his team was to blame, if a war can be winning 1v1. even if you go wammo, the healing is not even in the same league. and well... a gd warrior? tell me what any gd warrior can do blinded every 4 secs?

Mekkakat · Apr 30, 2007, 01:22 PM // 13:22

the ra observations were simply an example. i've beaten all of NF with my derv and had some very popular, and homemade builds. its not like i've never sat down to see the usage of them. im not bashing the class, simply disappointed that its not as good as i wish it could be, or as good as the other professions in my opinion. i know i dont have to play them, im not crazy, but i'd love to know that rerolling a pvp derv wouldnt make me feel bored and useless as it does now. when i play monk, i heal, rit, i support/heal, mesmer, tons of things, warriors kill, rangers thump/intterupt, sins spike, paragons support/spike, necro, support, and eles pressure/kill. when we gvg/ha, dervishes are never a threat, even in the backlines, they almost seem like a joke. like "oh here comes another" HEX, or BLIND. and then they run. where as the same thing would happen to me as a warrior, and i could fight right through it and take that damage/degen or lack of ability to attack with aplomb and start chopping heads after with ease. to me its like this

dervs pve=... you cant pve? who cant pve? lol.. i could probably beat the campaigns with a ele with only firestorm lol.

derv pvp= pressure. they have a good bit, but unless you have fury up, its barely moderate pressure, and unless you have grenth, stances, protective spirit, bond, ect, has you stomped. against melee, you're GOING to kill the sins, thats the least of the problem, but warriors are going to be rough on you. rangers are nasty because we interrupt those lil avatars and enchants till you have no energy. mesmer hex, disenchant, and steal energy making enchanting useless, necros can be a dervs worst nightmare, and eles will snare you or just blind you.

every class has a counter/weakness if not MORE than one, but slow attacking, enchant depending, moderate damage is just too many liabilities for me to get hooked. it seems like every class is a counter for this profession.

Mekkakat · Apr 30, 2007, 01:34 PM // 13:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan-the-noob

yet in your "toe-to-toe" you seem to think the dervish can't handle spike dmg? tbh i would think his team was to blame, if a war can be winning 1v1. even if you go wammo, the healing is not even in the same league. and well... a gd warrior? tell me what any gd warrior can do blinded every 4 secs?

why do you keep mentioning "wammos"?? seriously, wherever you're seeing these terrible warriors, stop going there lol.

here's a hypothetical team situation.

both melee are hexed (warrior/derv), they both have faintheartedness on and cover hexes with degen. the dervs attack speed is about 2.45 seconds and the warrior (playing sword or axe) is 1.98, meaning he attacks more, gets more adrenaline, and is still getting pumped. your derv goes to blind him, great, its removed, so is all of your enchantments by our mesmer. you have no energy, because he's burning you, and our sin is spiking your monk now too. the warrior knowing you're gimped, runs away, kills your mesmer, your monks dead, your necro is beginning to get shut down ect. all the derv was was a liability and adrenaline doll. the derv btw also wasted time healing, resetting enchants if he could, and trying to run into his backline that is now nonexistent. this happens all of the time in real play btw and is actually pretty hilarious. gimping the entire class can be done in so many ways, that its not even a challenge to stop them. like shield bashing a bad sin that attacks you head on or something.

i want to see a derv with some thought rather than "lets put all these healing spells on so we're INVINCIBLE!!!!!"" and rather.. "lets kill something this time".

you know what build i like? the popular gvg reapers sweep/disrupting dagger build. thats a good fighter. i wish more dervs used reapers sweep in pvp instead of stupid avatar crap. i know a lot do, but its a much better move than those things.

Mekkakat · Apr 30, 2007, 01:40 PM // 13:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anarion Silverhand

You can't really judge a class by looking at the RA builds used. The majority of the builds used in RA will always be non-optimal and won't be very good.

most or the dervs were all guildwiki cookiecutter builds, like balth, melandru, and dwanyas build. the players obviously had to suck. but the chances of seeing all of those different sucky people was almost sad. it was like watching an entire classes' community be made of simpletons. i've seen one good derv so far. he killed our necromancer in ta the other day, and we totally underestimated him. he was running reapers/natural healing/disrupting dagger, and totally owning up. i even pmed him and told him he rocked. he gave my rit a total run for my money too, i had to kite like crap lol. and again, the RA example was just another test i had done with them to composed viewpoints and see others play. not to stereotype them or something